big city with close to zero personal vehicles
What’s that? Big city filled with cars, roads and useless pocket greenspaces, but with no small town community or flexibility?
- North American city planners, circa one city construction ago.
Oil industry lobbyists are a bitch, eh?
It wasn’t just them, or the auto manufacture lobbyists that were probably more powerful at the time. There was also the influence of slightly older conspicuous consumption, so suburban lots were designed to look like mini country estates, and generally the re-emphasis of connection with the outdoors and nature that came in the midcentury. Plus, if it’s a totally new neighborhood, you can keep minorities out from the start.
It seems designers thought people in suburbs would, like, be close friends with everyone on the cul-de-sac, and they’d spend all weekend chilling outdoors and having barbecues. Maybe make one giant croquet course all down the street. Instead, you barely know your immediate neighbor’s names, and anyone two doors down is under suspicion of being a violent criminal.
To be fair, they aren’t the first or last designers to fundamentally misunderstand how the public will interact with the infrastructure; that’s still a source of surprises today. I just wish we had changed course as soon as the truth became clear.
I thought we were talking about inner city planning, but yeah, suburbs are the flip side to the same coin.
that includes mini scooters for me, and guys on racing bikes in full spandex gear yelling “cmon!” to people
And if they’re not yelling “c’mon” at you they’ll be yelling “cheater!”. Like bro this isn’t tour de france, I’m just tryna get to work…
City, no doubt in my mind.
Being able to walk, bike and take transit instead of having to own a car is important for me. I’m not interested in the additional maintenance involved with owning a house, an apartment suits me a lot better. I also like having good access to plenty of things to do in the form of a great selection of restaurants and being close to international transportation options. Good access to nature without having to drive a car is also important to me.
Sounds like you’d enjoy Shinjuku.
I’ll have to check it out sometime, thanks for the recommendation.
Always a small town. I like to have a big house and a semblance of nature available. Although I could do with less right wing neighbours.
Philadelphia has Fairmount park, the largest inner city park (not counting Central Park, which was manufactured). You can live in a house right up against it. I imagine other cities have plenty of nature too. And even not next to giant parks, many larger cities have home with large yards and tons of trees
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Yeah small town on a rail line sounds great. Sadly there are very few such places where I live.
Rail for intercity/town transport plus bikes and buses/trams for in town is my dream set up.
I just want to get to places quickly, safely, and without breaking the bank. It doesn’t need to be bullet train for me, or with a quintuple 9 degree of safety and I would pay more in taxes or personal cost to have it. Just something better than the constant growing traffic and distances every year.
Mid-sized stand-alone city. Think 50-200K people.
If I explicitly have to choose between big city or small town, then it comes down to employment options. If that is a non-factor (e.g. remote work) then small town.
For those saying culture or whatever, I’m ok with commuting to a big city once a month or whatever for that stuff. I don’t need cultural attractions for my day-to-day life.
Size doesn’t really matter to me. Density and accessibility matter to me most.
I would rather live in a community of ~10k that is walkable than a community of 1m+ where I have to drive everywhere. If I can access groceries, dining, and public transportation without ever needing to own a car, I am happy.
I could live in North Bend, Washington, but not Gary, Indiana.
I could live in NYC, but not L.A.
I prefer to live in the middle of nowhere(ish) aside from the conservative culture which inevitably comes with it. I also like walkable city areas. I completely hate anything in between.
Suburbia has no redeeming features. ! fuckcars@lemmy.world
This entire question is completely distorted by the poor-qualtiy postwar urbanism that is rampant everywhere.
The reality is, there shouldn’t be much difference. Lowrise cities – 2-4 story buildings/townhomes, small apartments, walkable neighborhoods/mass transit, corner groceries, all that stuff that people think can ONLY exist in big cities should be the norm for nearly all towns.
I don’t think many people would describe a place like, say, Bordeaux as a “big city”. 250kish people in 50 square kilometers is hardly Paris. It’s a small city, or maybe a big town. And it has everything you can want from a city and more. Shows, museums, beautiful multimodal neighborhoods, a robust tram system, restaurants and cafes and bars. All this kind of stuff.
The problem is we’ve all been mentally taught you can either live in island, R1A zoned suburbs which require driving to do ANYTHING or else you need to live in a huge metropolis like NYC. Or else we’ve been trained to think of a “city” like the bullshit they have in Texas, where it combines all the worst features of those island suburbs/car dependence with all the worst parts of city (crazy prices, noise, exposure to nearby-feeling crime, etc).
While a lot of the US big cities are trying to sort out the knots they’ve tied themselves in, your best bet to find beautiful, livable urban-ism is in those much smaller <500k cities that don’t even show up on the typical lists of cities. Especially if they are historic, since the more historic a place is the less likely it got bulldozed in the 60s to make room for more highways (destroying local neighborhoods in the process) Some kind of a big university also tends to be a plus, though it’s a mixed bag. Check for places that do not have an interstate carving through the middle of the city.
We can only get the amenities of modern urbanism in the biggest metropolises these days because of how badly the “suburban experiment” has distorted and destroyed our community life. And there can only be so many metropolises, so they’ve naturally turned absurdly expensive. People can’t afford to live in them because of how much people want to live in them. So they settle for suburbia, since financial poverty feels way worse than poverty of community.
The problem is we’ve all been mentally taught you can either live in island, R1A zoned suburbs which require driving to do ANYTHING or else you need to live in a huge metropolis like NYC
I prefer areas zoned for agriculture over either of those. My favorite place I’ve lived so far is one where you look out at night and see nothing but inky black outside my windows. I’ll walk 5 miles to the nearest town for that.
I’ll never argue with someone who wants that true, rural/countryside/homestead life. The appeal is there for me too, even if my own calculus says the cons wildly outweigh the pros.
I’m pretty skeptical you’re going to find it 5 miles from a healthy town, though.
I would walk 500 miles for a clear, dark night sky.
City. Around 100k is the comfortable size.
Not like I require the city’s wider array of amenities all that much. I will still be spending 97% of my time at work or at home.
But if I lived in a small town again (born and raised in a town of <8,000), that extra 3% of the time I wanted to go out I’d have to remind myself, “Oh yeah, I live in a dead end town in the middle of nowhere that services none of my personal interests,” and that 3% would rapidly become 0%. I’d live fine with that, but eh. Why take a strict net loss when I can simply not?
The walkabiity and community arguments for small towns are complete non-factors for me, seeing as I go basically nowhere and talk to basically no one. And I’m not persuaded by the cost of living argument for small towns, since lower rent would be almost equally counterbalanced by lower salary opportunities.
Not only does the salary go down in small towns but the number of positions are greatly reduced. All it takes is a layoff and that “cheaper” small town could be too expensive because there are no more positions to fill.
The exception would be high-paid remote work, I guess. But with the reputation that corpos big enough to field those salaries have been recently building, going mask-off with no warning for no reason and asking employees to start filling desks again, I don’t know if I’d risk it.
100k is a big town, not a city.
Having lived in both, I prefer the big city. Aside from numerous reasons already mentioned in this thread, I notice that big city people are more open-minded and more diverse. Being slightly different for whatever reason is more of an issue in a small community.
I prefer living i a nice suburb with excellent public transport to get to work in the city.
Just like I have been doing for all my life (:
The city is a place you visit, and then come home to your nice suburb walk home from the bus stop along a small, quiet canal, sometimes there is an event in the park you pass through, else it is just quiet.
Need to get to work in the city center? Get on the bus that departs every 5-10 min during rush hour, 30 min later switch to the underground that departs every 5 min, switch lines, get off 15 and walk to the office, arrive 45 min after you left home having slept or watched videos on your commute.
It is really expensive to build public transportation in lower density suburbs.
Big city for sure, I don’t want to need a car and I do want to be able to get groceries 23.40 at a Saturday night. It’s nice to have a group of 500k+ people actively trying to supply for all of the needs and wants I might have.
I grew up in a small town. I live in a big city. While I can see the allure of smallish towns (20-50k people), I prefer not having to drive several miles to get anywhere. I have three grocery stores and a bar/restaurant/music venue within walking distance. Cities that size also tend to have urban sprawl which I think is ugly af.
The town I grew up in had about 2500 people and you had to drive an hour and a half to get to a town with more than 10k people. People there tend to be very conservative which is odd considering the government is the biggest employer and towns like that take more state funds than they produce.
That’s a planning problem imo, from small towns to metropolises groceries, health clinic, some entertainment can be in walking distance.
Yeah but people in small towns are more likely to believe 15 minute cities is just a cover for 15 minute prisons so planning is a minefield of conspiracy morons.
The older I get the more remote I want to live. I just want a good grocery store, a hardware store, doctor and vet in approx 10 min drive distance and I need something to charge my car nearby. That’s all the „city“ I need. Otherwise I want peace and nature around me.
75% of the water pumped out of America’s rock needs treatment for particulate. You’re going to need food municipal water for a while if you’re in America, and that is gonna limit your range from city hall.
Also. Low-density is the worst configuration for housing on a cost/benefits and land-use perspective. We left the 1950s a long time ago, so, no matter where you live we can’t go back to sprawl and low density.
Bad for your water (and other infrastructure) and bad for the planet. Otherwise, enjoy!
If low density is the worst for housing cost-effectiveness, why is living in large cities so much more expensive?
Subsidies. Both in form of roads and home ownership incentives being focused on single family homes. The fact that renting is the primary way to live in the city seems detrimental to it being cost effective too.
I find your point about renting compelling, is there anything that could be done to improve the situation?
I’ve done both, neither, just kill me now. Unless the small town is near a big city, so I can have cheaper housing but also access to more than a dollar general without driving for an hour.
